Keeping culture

Desrae Rotumah

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Audio Interview with Desrae Rotumah, Director, Minjungbal Trading Company, Tweed Heads.

Recorded at Minjungbal Resource Museum & Study Centre, Tweed Heads, 10 April, 2001
Interview by Cathie Payne & Peter White, Australian Museum
Sound Recorded by Joshua Raymond

Q. Desrae could you introduce yourself and what role you at the Centre?
Well, my name is Desrae Rotumah and I've been associated with Minjungbal Resource Museum and Study Centre since its inception in about 1982. First of all, we were established as the Tweed Aboriginal Co-operative Society Limited who, through their board of directors, decided that we needed a museum so that Miss Kay (an older lady from our area) [could bring home] her artefacts. So, we applied to [the] then Department of Aboriginal Affairs for funding to build our museum and I suppose we were lucky we got it. We built the museum and, with help from the Australian Museum and the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies in Canberra , we had a pictorial display put in and, I think, videos to show to our people and that's all we had in the first place.

Q. Can you describe how the actual organisations have worked?
Minjungbal Trading Company was originally set up because Tweed Aboriginal Co-operative were the first to build one part of our museum in 1984 and then, in 1988, Tweed Byron Local Aboriginal Land Council built the second stage of our complex here and our community thought ... instead of having two organisations running the one complex, ... we'd marry the two. So, we came up with Minjungbal Trading Company [which] consists of three directors from Land Council and three directors from Tweed Aboriginal Co-operative and that's how it is today. We think it's working.

Q. Why was the museum set up in the first place?
I think one of the main reasons why we were set was because Miss Kay, as I stated earlier, was an Aboriginal lady that took it upon herself to ... take tours of school groups and anybody else that was interested over here to the bora ring and also give them talks on Aboriginal culture. And, I suppose, it's through her foresight that we still have our bora ground and our bora ring which is in pretty good order still here with us today. And it's not far from where our complex is set up...

Q. What is your relationship with National Parks?
Well, we have a pretty good ... relationship with National Parks & Wildlife Service. Right through from when Tweed Aboriginal Co-op first put in to build the first stage of our complex as it is now, National Parks & Wildlife Service were helpful. They gave us ... the names of architects and things like that ... because our community was really adamant that they weren't going to have a brick building sitting down in here - that would be out of context with the environment. So National Parks were pretty good. They came up with a really good architect [who] came up with a ... wooden design that they liked and that's how we ended up with our ... pretty good building here. It blends in with our environment. We like it anyway [laughs] and so do the termites.

Q. Can you tell us what the land is titled as?
Well, the land that we are actually situated on is classed as a historical site because of our bora ground. Tweed Aboriginal Co-op, as I said, hold the head lease ... from National Parks. It's a 25-year lease. It's just a nominal lease. That should be up, I think ... [in] 2003. So that's not too long. Hopefully the government w ill hand [it] back to the community.

Q. How large is the actual historic site?
The actual historic site is, I think, ... eight and a half hectares. That's the historic site here which joins to Ukerebagh Reserve . That's not us but ... a lot of our people ... used to live on Ukerebagh Reserve. So we'd like to see everything stay as is. We don't want to see it [become] part of a golf course.

Q. What's special about the site historically?
Well, this ... area is classed as a historic site because of the bora ground that is on it. From what we've been told from National Parks, it's in really good condition - our bora ground - and, well, usually you have two rings when you have a bora ground, but we've only been able to find the one at the moment - the big ring. We lost the smaller one but it wouldn't have been open to the public anyway...Before we built in the areas that we are [in ] we had people from National Parks [and] people from the community go over the ground with a fine-toothed comb to make sure that we weren't building on it. We know for sure that we've not built on it.

Q. Can you also tell us about Ukerebagh Island ?
Well, apparently - this would be before my time - ... cane boats, ... barges and everything used to pull in to the wharf over there. And they used to call it the Blacks' Camp because ... all the blackfellas used to live on there [and] travel the rivers and there's a [mob] that used to live out there. That's all I know. I think, they had to move off [from] there because there wasn't really any ... facilities, fresh water and things like that. Our fellas used to just have wells and things like that. I think that was one of the main reasons why they had to move.

Q. What is a bora ring?
A bora ring is actually a meeting place where tribes would come together for initiation ceremonies [for] the young men of the areas. The actual initiation ceremonies weren't done on the big ring; everybody was allowed on the big ring - men, women, children. ...When it was time for ... the actual initiation, they'd be led off ... the big ring down to the small ring. But only ... the young men that were being initiated and the elders that were actually going to do the ceremonies were allowed onto the smaller ring. So ... we wouldn't open [the smaller ring] up to everyone because that would have been the sacred ring.

Q. Could you tell us how the Minjungbal Resource Museum & Study Centre was built - the process?
Well, the first building was built by Tweed Aboriginal Co-operative. The board of directors of the Tweed Aboriginal Co-operative ... [in] consultation with the community, decided that a museum ... was in order for our area. We'd lost a lot of our culture and ... the board at that time thought a museum would be good for the area to ... resurrect the culture and the little bit that we did have and hopefully ... get people more interested in their background so that they'd start digging - which they are. So they put in to the then Department of Aboriginal ... for a grant to build our centre and ... they had a favourable reply and ... it was [in] consultation with National Parks to actually build the centre. And this was the obvious place to build [because this area] is so close to our bora ring.

Q. When was that?
Well, that was completed in 1984. It was actually opened in August in 1984.

Q. What was the first stage of the building like?
Well, at that time, it was just more or less like a theatrette, the actual Keeping Place [and] a small office. It was sort of ... hard because we got the grant for the actual building of the keeping place but we didn't get any ongoing [funding] to furnish the place. When we finished building, ...the Australian Museum ... came to the rescue and loaned us a lot of artefacts and pictorial displays... we ended up with having to put in air-conditioning because of that! It cost heaps [laughs] because we had to keep the room at a certain temperature for humidity. Apparently humidity wrecks all the artefacts or something ... You should have seen our electricity b ill !

Q. Who funded the Keeping Place initially?
The Department of Aboriginal Affairs (DAA) . Yeah, they built it. ... I think it was DAA that came up with the second grant to actually furnish it. We had the showcases and the display boards and everything built and I think that was DAA again too. I don't think Aboriginal Development Corporation give us anything and ... then the Australian Museum came up with the actual artefacts to put in the display cases. ... The Aboriginal Institute from Canberra sent us videos and things like that for the video area. So it was Department of Aboriginal Affairs that mainly did all the work to get our keeping place up and running. Plus the Australian Museum .

Q. How was the second stage of the building established?
[The] second stage of our complex ... was actually built by our Land Council as a bicentennial project and the reason ... it was built here with the museum ... was a project that was supposed to have gone ahead further down the coast at Pottsv ill e but because of ... our local government pulling out with the access road to the area where our land was, ...we couldn't go ahead with the project. So, instead of losing all the funding, our Land Council negotiated with our co-operative to build [the] second stage of our museum. And that's how we came up with ... the second stage - a theatrette, a library, a couple of offices, and [what's] supposed to be a work area but it's like a utility room at the moment but ... the general idea was for it to be a working area where people could see Aboriginal [people] doing their ... arts and craft. ...That was finished in '88 but then we had ... [the] co-op owning one bit and [the] Land Council owning the other bit, so we ... married the two up and that's the people that manage it now - Minjungbal Trading Company. ...Three get elected from our Land Council at their Annual General Meeting and three from co-op and [they] come together [as] the Minjungbal Trading Company.

Q. What type of Funding did you seek, including staff funding?
Over the years, funding has been really hard here. ...We got the buildings all right but ... I suppose we thought ... the place would fund itself ... within the first five years. That didn't happen. We ... were funded through [the] Commonwealth Employment Service. Our downfall right through [was the fact that] we were operating [with] just community and voluntary people all the way through until we got the Training for Aboriginals Program. Then we got a three year grant from National Parks for a manager and a clerical [person]. That was over three years, so that was really good. And then that sort of faded out and we were back to [using volunteers] again. And then we got funding from ATSIC I think it was, but it's been really hard [to fund] wages just to staff ... this complex. ...You can't really put big entry fees on ... people to come in here because it's [an] educational [centre], but [because] it's also a tourist attraction, you can put big fees on. So, it's [hard] to marry a tourist attraction with an educational centre and it's near impossible because educational [people] don't want anything to do with you because you are tourist centre and tourist centres don't want [anything] to do with you because you are an educational centre. ... At the moment we, staff the place from Commonwealth Development Employment Program workers which has been working now for the last ... four years. But it's still hard because we haven't got a manager as such who is getting paid for the hours ... they do.

Q. How were different programs funded?
The dance group, that started here. That was a LEAP project. LEAP projects are usually Landcare and things like that but it also had [a] culture and heritage [aspect] in the funding guidelines. So we came up with this dance troupe proposal with ... Sk ill share ... and we asked them if it was possible to do it and they said they couldn't see why not. So we put up a proposal to them and it went through. It was good because we had about sixteen of our people, boys and girls, that were in the program and it lasted for six months. ...We had a really good dance troupe come out of it. They danced for ... community functions around the place. Not only... for us - the Aboriginal people, but for different community events like our Banana Festival. They opened the Banana Festival. [They danced for] Different dignitaries that came into the area [and had] functions [put on] for them. Our boys and girls ... were the entertainment for them, so I think it was good.

Well, the funding was only for six months. After the funding finished, ... some of them went into different employment. Some of them joined the army... There wasn't enough work for them to just stay dancing.

Q. What do you think are the achievements of the Keeping Place and Cultural Centre?
...Our initial aims for the centre was [for] it be a meeting place for our Koori people here and more or less a resurrection of our culture because we have lost a lot of culture up here, and I think by our centre being here that it's sort of brought back that pride in Aboriginality and I think it's also brought back a sense of belonging to something, and knowing who you are and ... not to be ashamed. ... There has been a lot of ... business plans ... done for this place and I mean really big plans that ... were too big for us. They were feasible for other people to run but wouldn't have been for us. I think we would have been probably all the little peas at the bottom running around and you still would have had your white administration on top looking after it all. And that's not ... what this place was built to do. So it didn't happen.

Q. They would have been out of touch with the community?
I think it would have taken away [our] self-determination ... [and] pride because ... the community see this is as theirs. ...The funding bodies don't look at it that way. Like we've had managers in here ... because of the funding that we received that said that you have to have a manager with these credentials and those credentials and at that point in time we didn't have the people in our community with that qualification so we had to put on white people to run it and it just didn't happen. I mean we had to end up asking one of them to leave. I mean the place was run into the ground, and I mean, they just don't ... understand that it is a community organisation and ... it's there for the community. Most of us that sit on the Minjungbal board are from our local community and we have to live with the decisions we make for this place every day. ... The other manager went home out of the community but were still living in it and I don't think they could understand that it is a community organisation and if something is going wrong, then you've got to know about it and you're going to wear it in the community. I don't think even the funding bodies realise that either -that because it is a community organisation, the community want to run it their way and putting stipulations on the conditions of the funding [doesn't work]. It's not really what the community want in the first place but because they want and need the funding, they have to adhere to those conditions.

... they don't have that sense of continuation?
No.

That things will have an impact for some time.
Well, ... we are hopeful that this is going to be here in another ten years time and that it w ill be running a little bit better than it is running now because our fellas are out there in the TAFEs, in the unis getting the sk ill s. And hopefully, they'll come back and use some of [those sk ill s] here, so it can only get better. [laughs]. ...Most Aboriginal organisations are not dumb. They know that money has to be accounted for. ... A lot of our fellas here have been through business management courses, have been through small business courses ... and ... know how our co-op runs, ... know how our land council runs so they mightn't have the sk ill s on paper but ... being in a community organisation, knowing how that runs, running the business is not too different. I mean it's all about budgeting, it's all about making sure that all your pennies are accounted for. And I think our funding bodies [should] ... bend a little bit, just ... to sway with what the people want to do. I think you hear that from all Aboriginal organisations today. You know sometimes it's the funding bodies that are really running the organisations because of their strict stipulations and conditions on their grants.

Q. What advice would you give to people wanting to set up a cultural centre?
I think if it's going to be ... for the local area, I think the main thing is to listen to your people and what they're saying. I know you're not going to have everybody in agreement, but if you can have the majority [in agreement] and you know that it's going to be good and your heart is telling you that it's right, run with it. ...You need good listening skill s ... because most of the time, listening is the skill to get you through. ... I think the smarter person sits down [to] listen to the people [and doesn't] say too much, but it's what they're not saying that guides [them] in what [they] should be doing. ...We have a lot of functions here with our oldies and they don't say too much but the little bit that they do say is enough to know if you are going in the right direction. So I would say, you know, the main thing is to listen to your people and ... have clear goals set out [about] what you want to do. Know what you are going to do with your keeping place. I think that's where maybe we are in trouble now because we tried to be a tourist attraction and an educational centre. But I think we had to be [a tourist attraction] and trying to marry the two just isn't happening at the moment but we couldn't be anything else [because of] where we are. I mean we are right on the tip of the Gold Coast. So people coming from overseas want to learn about Aboriginal culture and they are w ill ing to pay for it, but our schools need to learn about it too. There's not ... a middle way there.

Q. What do you mean by not happening?
Well, I mean you go to the Gold Coast now and you go to DreamWorld, you go to WaterWorld, you go to MovieWorld. I mean you're paying $45-$50 entry fee to be up there all day. All they're doing is going up in roller coasters. They're not learning anything. I reckon we've got something here that is probably more beneficial to not only our international tourists but to our domestic ones too and to our schools. [But] I bet if we put even $20 on an entry fee people would laugh at us and wouldn't even come in.

Q. What's the entry fee now?
I think it's only about $6 and $3. Six dollars for adults. I mean I don't think we've put our prices up for ages. If you want a tour with it I think it's about $10 or $11. But if you just want to wander around, it's only $6.

Q. How many school groups would you have a week?
That all depends ... Towards the end of term, there's ... an influx of school groups coming through. In the school groups that are coming through, you can have anything from say 10, 15 kids up to 150 kids. We had ... a uni group come in yesterday that went through to Brisbane for some program in Brisbane and called in on the way back. I suppose on average you'd probably average out at about 60 odd children a week.

And general visitors?
... because ... we're in the historic site, you get a lot of people just coming in to do the walk. ... a couple of our workers over at Centrelink use our walking trails as a jogging track. They come over in their lunch hour to do it. So there [are] people ... on the walk and in the site all the time.

And local people?
Local people, well a lot of our [ people] use it because it is a good trail. There's a koala group that uses it too. We haven't had koalas in here for a couple of years now but they still come. We'd like to see more tours coming in but ... at the moment it's just not happening. But we're still working towards it [laughs].

Q. What are the plans for the future of the Centre & Keeping Place?
I think what we would like to see is this place [become] self-sufficient, [to] hold the wages of a manager, probably two tour guides, maybe one and a half shop assistants and a cleaner - maybe six people. I think that would be great. But, as I said, we're not going to see it on six dollar entry fees [laughs].

Q. What staff do you have at the moment?
All of [our] people are part-time because they are all on CDEP .

So they're on two days?
Two days, except our cleaner who comes in two hours every day to make up the twelve hours that they have to do for CDEP.

Q. How many staff do you have currently?
Nine. Well, we've got a supervisor, two tour guides, a cleaner, a grounds person, coordinator, two shop assistants and one clerical.

Q. How did you decide on the building materials for the Centre?
[we had to] negotiate with National Parks and ... they were really adamant that they weren't putting up a brick place here. Maybe we should have put up a brick place because we wouldn't have the trouble with the termites that we've got now. But I don't think a brick place would be nice either.

Q. This building really works well with the surrounding bush.
It does. It blends in lovely. ... a lot of this here used to be scrub and now it's all built out. Banora Point is just over-built and everywhere else is over-built and this is the last bit of scrub left that we've got and all the termites seem to be coming here. Instead of going to our trees, they're coming into our building. And see that's another worry because ... maintenance of the building is of utmost importance to us and ... we're just thankful that National Parks have been helping ... along the line a bit. But it's a worry. The termites are a big worry. But oh well, hopefully good things w ill come, maybe [laughs].

End of interview

Credits

Contact details

Peter White
Aboriginal Project Officer
Aboriginal Heritage Unit
Email: Email Peter White